Original Post
Lenshu (and Lenshuf)
Recently, I temporarily replaced lenshu3ng with lenshuf in both tourney13 and public7.
lenshuf differs from lenshu3ng in four aspects:
Overall the response to this change was mixed. I discussed this for hours with a lot of different people. Thoughts I got on each setting change:
+10 engagedistance:
This change was pointless. It's intention was the make rush openers more of a commitment with less recovery options, but failed in this regard when tested. However, perhaps a different (higher?) ED would have other effects.
-50 dojosize:
Very mixed reaction to this change. Some players believe it rewards forward/aggressive play by reducing the amount of space your opponent can back into. Whether a reduced dojo has an effect on running is a separate discussion which is still unresolved. An issue other had with the reduced size was pushing becomes a more pronounced win condition.
+5dqtimer (25 total):
Nobody I talked to had an issue with this change.
wrist dm => 600:
Overall positive response to this. Wrist dms are a frustrating and limiting mechanic which 95% of the time happen from pressure - they are almost NEVER planned to happen and take the focus away from pvp to player vs floor. This would be acceptable, except the bruising mechanic is very iffy and hard to judge - sometimes a move will dm your wrist and sometimes it won't depending on how hard you were hit and how long ago. All in all, weak wrists are a confusing and opaque mechanic and this aims to tackle that and allow for faster comebacks and sharper movement. So far I haven't had a good argument against this, but I'm open to discussion.
To discuss:
lenshuf differs from lenshu3ng in four aspects:
- +10 engagedistance
- -50 dojosize
- +5 dqtimer (25 total)
- wrist dm thresh is 600
Overall the response to this change was mixed. I discussed this for hours with a lot of different people. Thoughts I got on each setting change:
+10 engagedistance:
This change was pointless. It's intention was the make rush openers more of a commitment with less recovery options, but failed in this regard when tested. However, perhaps a different (higher?) ED would have other effects.
-50 dojosize:
Very mixed reaction to this change. Some players believe it rewards forward/aggressive play by reducing the amount of space your opponent can back into. Whether a reduced dojo has an effect on running is a separate discussion which is still unresolved. An issue other had with the reduced size was pushing becomes a more pronounced win condition.
+5dqtimer (25 total):
Nobody I talked to had an issue with this change.
wrist dm => 600:
Overall positive response to this. Wrist dms are a frustrating and limiting mechanic which 95% of the time happen from pressure - they are almost NEVER planned to happen and take the focus away from pvp to player vs floor. This would be acceptable, except the bruising mechanic is very iffy and hard to judge - sometimes a move will dm your wrist and sometimes it won't depending on how hard you were hit and how long ago. All in all, weak wrists are a confusing and opaque mechanic and this aims to tackle that and allow for faster comebacks and sharper movement. So far I haven't had a good argument against this, but I'm open to discussion.
To discuss:
- lenshuf mechanics - good or need tweaking?
- should 3ng be phased out for the new mod, or should they be run parallel?
- is 3ng superior and the only version that should be considered?
Last edited by Fear; Oct 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM.
I love modding different lenshu variants, here are some things which people tend to like (and I like) about my striking-esque mods:
10 tf for first three turns:
Makes rushing super easy to counter, with much greater opportunity to react to your opponents opening moves. 200 ed is a pretty good ed for striking mods, since it leaves you close enough to engage your opponent but not close enough to smooch em.
Fixed point distribution:
Fixing the points so they reward more careful strikes and protect you from stupid damage if your wrist or arm gets caught up in the strike, you might remember striking reborn was an org literally made around a modset with this kind of goal.
Similarly, I also like to change the point_dm parameter for most of the joints to scale a bit better with the point distribution
Alternate dm thresholds for limbs:
600 personally seems a bit high, I like to do 500 on the wrist/ankle, 370 on the elbow/knee, 420 on the shoulder/hip, 345 on the pecs/glutes / rest of the tori depending on how high i want the base threshold to be
I also nudge up the threshold for the neck, but that's just personal preference.
this is polished in more recent mods and i intend to polish it more, but here are the toris and gamerules from my acroshu_f mod to give you a better idea of what i'm saying
I don't mind at all retiring lenshu for a more polished, competitive heavy grav striking mod, but there should be some community consensus on which one(s) that should be and there's should be lots of testing and trying out up to making it more official-ish.
10 tf for first three turns:
Makes rushing super easy to counter, with much greater opportunity to react to your opponents opening moves. 200 ed is a pretty good ed for striking mods, since it leaves you close enough to engage your opponent but not close enough to smooch em.
Fixed point distribution:
Fixing the points so they reward more careful strikes and protect you from stupid damage if your wrist or arm gets caught up in the strike, you might remember striking reborn was an org literally made around a modset with this kind of goal.
Similarly, I also like to change the point_dm parameter for most of the joints to scale a bit better with the point distribution
Alternate dm thresholds for limbs:
600 personally seems a bit high, I like to do 500 on the wrist/ankle, 370 on the elbow/knee, 420 on the shoulder/hip, 345 on the pecs/glutes / rest of the tori depending on how high i want the base threshold to be
I also nudge up the threshold for the neck, but that's just personal preference.
this is polished in more recent mods and i intend to polish it more, but here are the toris and gamerules from my acroshu_f mod to give you a better idea of what i'm saying
I don't mind at all retiring lenshu for a more polished, competitive heavy grav striking mod, but there should be some community consensus on which one(s) that should be and there's should be lots of testing and trying out up to making it more official-ish.
I agree with a lot of your points, but there's also to keep in mind is that if you change the mod so much you might as well call it something else and not even bother comparing the two - not that I'm saying your suggested changes fall into that category but it's something to consider.
Diamond wanted dm to be disabled and replaced with frac at 300 threshold, he said bruising makes dms an unreliable and game ending mechanic and you're already rewarded for heavy hits by a lot of points.
Diamond wanted dm to be disabled and replaced with frac at 300 threshold, he said bruising makes dms an unreliable and game ending mechanic and you're already rewarded for heavy hits by a lot of points.
For me I personally like the wrist dmt it is nice that I don't have to worry about my wrists getting dmed on a launch. I also like the extra 5 to the dq timer as it allows you to play a bit riskier which makes it more fun.
But for me I didn't really like the added 10 to the ed because to me it doesn't really do anything rushes are just as easy because its only just an added 10. I also wasn't that keen on the smaller dojo because running is just as easy and if you want to stop that then the dojo will have to be crazy small, but a smaller dojo is nice for aggressive play but it isn't so good for people that are defensive in their way of playing because they have less space to set up blocks and a smaller dojo can mean ring outs are easier to achieve which can be annoying for some people.
But I think if you keep some of the lenshuf aspects and some of the lenshu3ng aspects there could be a pretty good mod to be made so like have it like this;
But for me I didn't really like the added 10 to the ed because to me it doesn't really do anything rushes are just as easy because its only just an added 10. I also wasn't that keen on the smaller dojo because running is just as easy and if you want to stop that then the dojo will have to be crazy small, but a smaller dojo is nice for aggressive play but it isn't so good for people that are defensive in their way of playing because they have less space to set up blocks and a smaller dojo can mean ring outs are easier to achieve which can be annoying for some people.
But I think if you keep some of the lenshuf aspects and some of the lenshu3ng aspects there could be a pretty good mod to be made so like have it like this;
- engagedistance at 200
- -dojosize at 600
- +5 dqtimer (25 total)
- wrist dm thresh is 600
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[NOoT], [TL] and [TA]
Clan League 2016 2nd place holder.
Clan League 2017 1st place holder.
I agree, although that depends kinda on what the changes are. Imo things like changing the point distributions, altering individual thresholds, subtle changes to the environment like altering the bounce and friction values of the floor and the surrounding box (if it exists), subtle frame-sensitive tf alterations (like how abd's turnframes get larger as the match goes on), etc. are generally just polishes to a mod, while mods like qoob or acroshu which significantly alter the way the mod is played at a fundamental level fall under what you're talking about. Staying away from adding complex environments, making large tf, ed, or gravity changes, etc. should maintain the integrity of gameplay
Removing dms and then entirely removing points from frac might be a good idea, since that sounds like what diamond is going for.
Removing dms and then entirely removing points from frac might be a good idea, since that sounds like what diamond is going for.
