Originally Posted by uppkicker

Sorry, i went offline yesterday, because i was tired XD, and i don't know if mat is here now, but let me post my defens:

"False balance.
You are saying that if you can get dm'd, then you can also dm. but this does not equate.
let's say your opponent rushes. now you need to know how to counter it, PLUS the knowledge of how to dm him.
doesn't stand up very well, does it?"

Ok, so you need the knowledge on how to counter, and also how to dm. Well, how do you acquire that knowledge? I would say through experience, which in my mind atleast is a big part in skill if you can use it well.

"any mod? let me introduce you to spiritwrestling.tbm
the key to making a mod balanced is frame weightage.
take a very unbalanced (and to add, shitty) mod judo. the emphasis is strongly on the opener, and the opener itself. players playing improvisation is as existent as unicorns.
now take a mod like abd. you can just do the regular clap and still be streaking 20. why? because the emphasis is on what you do after the opener.
same goes with wushu, it's a very balanced mod, and requires skill to win."

On kindof a side note: what ever happened to spiritwrestling, is it still on an official server? I love that mod, one of my favourites.

So, you are saying that in a game where openers are the primary way of winning, and whoever has the best opener wins (?). To me that sounds like a game of rock, paper, scissors. Because player A might make an opener that can be countered by another opener that player B uses, but player B's opener can be countered by another opener, do you see how this sounds like a game of rock, paper,scissors?

So let's say judo then, that would be a rock,paper,scissors style game? I would agree with that.

(I just want to interject that before you call strawman i want to clarify what i mean with "the opener being the primary way to win". You said:
"the key to making a mod balanced is frame weightage"

I interpret this to mean that if a mod puts a lot of emphasis on the opener i.e. giving the opener more frames. And also some other factors such as players starting close to eachother.

That is what i mean when i say "the opener being the primary way to win".)

Now, back to the rock,paper,scissors thingy: I do not believe that a game of rps is luck based. I do not need to explain why i think that rps itself is not luck based, because rps is not the same thing as judo, though they have simularities.

Why don't i think judo is luck based? Well, how many distinctly different openers are there in judo that would give you the major upper-hand? I cannot say how many there are, but i assure you that it is not infinete, therefor you could in theory learn a counter for every, or atleast most of theese. Do you see now why it is like rps? (i want to really make this point as clearly as i can, as you are prone to call strawman whenever i draw a parallel, therefor i really want you to see why i think this way mat.

So how is this not luck? Well, i actually explained how i define luck in a previous post, but you might have missed it or simply forgotten it. so let me say it again:

In my mind luck is defined as:

Something that the players cannot have control over, that they have no knowledge of the outcome of, and that is unfair in nature.

Mow, why rps does not follow this rule is a whole separet post in itself, so let me explain why judo does not follow this rule:

Sure, player A does not know what player B is going to do in his opener. But if he had seen this player play before and that player B in 75% of the cases go for move X, which can be countered by move Y, if player plays move X, he has a 75% chance to counter.

This may still sound like a game of luck, because it is not 100% certain that player B will go for move X, but the point i am trying to make is that the skill in judo comes from trying to know what opener your opponent wil make, this may sound like an impossible task, but "if you know your opponent you may not fear a thousand battles."

And in judo there are some defensive openers that negate alot of the offensive openers, such as throwing yourself backwards, and then on the second turn start to spring back for an attack. Moves like theese limit your opponents possibilities in hitting you.
And two wise players would in a game like this both go for a defensive move in order to avoid this rps situation.

In short then: Judo might involve an rps style of luck, but it is balanced, because it follows the rule i wrote earlier, now if you have a problem with that rule, attack it, do it, i want it to evolve, and it is not going to evolve if noone is pointing out it's weaknesses.

Do i play judo? Fuck no! Because i don't like that it is rps-esk, but i wouldn't call it unbalanced.

Since both players are equal (well, there are some differences between tori and uke, but theese are known variables which you can memorize.) And the judo mod places no unfair advantege to any player that is not known to the players it is not unbalanced nor luck based if you follow my rule.

If you have a different rule please present it, and i might swap mine for yours XD.

"In the case where both players rush, yes, it will be based somewhat on luck.
in mushu, you have to predict what your opponent will do, thus giving him an advantage to do unpredictable things, thus beating you. it matters what your opponent does, and yes that happens in other mods too, but that's just another fallacy to say that it makes mushu a balanced mod."

First, because i barely have two braincells to rub togeather: How is it a fallacy?

So you have to predict what your opponent will do, so he gets an advantege in that he can then do something that you did not predict? Ok sure, but the exact same point could be made if the roles where reversed. You see, both players have (nearly*) equal oppurtunities, so it is still not luck.

(*It's nearly the same because uke and tori are not the same, but that variable is known.)

Now please point out this tu quote fallacy.