Discussing is ok as long as its friendly. Well maybe changing topic? looks like we really got into this one lol. Ill wait to see what mat thinks about this tho.
Also I forgot to choose a winner for the logo thing :/ damn me and my shitty memory I guess I will make a votation, please pm when which of them do you think deserves to win, either mat or cata, their logos are a few pagesearlier, too lazy to put them there, I will choose once I have 5 votes.
Also I forgot to choose a winner for the logo thing :/ damn me and my shitty memory I guess I will make a votation, please pm when which of them do you think deserves to win, either mat or cata, their logos are a few pagesearlier, too lazy to put them there, I will choose once I have 5 votes.
You should probably choose mat's cause he is an over achiever and a talented piece of shiz... But seriously mat's logo for mau is close to perfect
Weirdest Tori in Toribash
<Diuwaybuns> Toribash is unprotected sex
<Diuwaybuns> Toribash is unprotected sex
alright, let's search for possible fallacies in your reasoning.
i'm thinking that it could possibly be tu quoque or two wrongs make a right.
How exactly mushu is 'balanced'? Your whole argument stands on a tu quoque fallacy. Two wrongs don't make a right, buddy.
Oh and yes, thanks for having an open mind, I hope I changed your view on how mushu is not balanced.
Here's how it is another way:
Let's say someone shovels you in aikido, now you need to know how to counter that shovel to not DQ. Also, unless the opponent does the extremely obvious shovel, you also need to know that your opponent will shovel.
The match is now not in your favor.
i'm thinking that it could possibly be tu quoque or two wrongs make a right.
Originally Posted by uppkicker
Ok, let me refute your points:
I've listed some of your points here and given them numbers, so as to make it easier for me to attack them.
#1: Easy to get dm's
#2: If you want to win, just rush or jump your opponent
#3: You can skeet easily
#4: Head don't dq
#5: 75% of the time you get lucky on dodges and wins
First i must mention that point 3 and 5 contradict eachother slightly. You may be able to skeet easily, but acording to your logic, there is only a 25% chance that you will hit., since the opponent can easily dodge the skeet.
Now let's get into the meat:
#1: Well, if it is easy for YOU to get dm's it must also be easy for your OPPONENT to get dm's, you might claim that this makes the mod less serious because matches edn sooner with a dq from a dm'd part. But this does not hold up, you see, if it is easier to be dm'd then you must adapt your ability to dodge hits, which brings us back to point 5.
False balance.
You are saying that if you can get dm'd, then you can also dm. but this does not equate.
let's say your opponent rushes. now you need to know how to counter it, PLUS the knowledge of how to dm him.
doesn't stand up very well, does it?
which states that there is a 75% chance of dodging, well then it is pretty easy to dodge an incoming blow isn't it? and if you dodge it, it can't possibly dm you. Now ofcourse you still need to adapt in order to be more defensive, but so must your opponent.
#2: Ok, but, what if your opponent also rushes or jumps you? Then what? Who wins then?
If there truly is this huge advantege in rushing your opponent, then almost every experienced player would do it right? So if two players rush eachother, you're still back at square one, meaning noone has an advantage.
see point 1.
#3: But, your opponent can skeet easily too.
Now maybe you claim that because it's harder to skeet in wushu, wushu is harder, but remember; in wushu it's harder to skeet for BOTH players, so they naturally adapt to not skeeting.
#4: See point 3, same logic: If YOU can use your head to save, sure it makes it easier for you to defend, but because the very same applies to your opponent, it is suddenly harder for you to dq him.
#5: Ok, not much to say about the dodging thing, but the win thing:
Are YOU winning 75% of the time? If so, you have just been blessed with being good at mushu, now if EVERYONE is winning 75% of the time, well, then reality itself is broken.
Now for the arguments i found less convincing to your cause:
#1b: You do not know WHEN you will get hit.
#2b: Joints don't change but other factors does.
I'll attack #2b first:
The factors do change, yes, but that only means that you have to learn how to use them, like let's say in mod A gravity is 10 and in mod B gravity is 20.
If you start learning in mod A then you will be confused and say that mod B is harder, but if you start in mod B the roles would be reversed. It is a matter of getting used to the mod, it's not the mod "difficulty".
#1b: Well, firstly a good player would know when a hit is coming in most mods, but let's say the don't. your opponent won't know either, he is just as blind as you are, and with someexperience you should be able to predict when the hits will come.
There, i believe i refuted atleast some of your points, ofcourse if you think otherwise please tell me so, i am not perfect, and i might very well be wring in this debate, but i stand by my points, claims and stances, although my mind is open to change.
Originally Posted by uppkicker
Yes typing on phones i bet where stans invention XD.
aight, here we go again XD i'll start with your counterpoints:
#1: So you are saying that the luckiest will win, well that would be true for any mod then.
You are right in that because you can get dm'd easier it iseasier that you lose when you get hit, but remember that the same is true for your opponent, if you hit him first, he will be more likely to lose, and that narrows it down to who will hit first, and that is about technique, and psykology in order to know where he will strike.
any mod? let me introduce you to spiritwrestling.tbm
the key to making a mod balanced is frame weightage.
take a very unbalanced (and to add, shitty) mod judo. the emphasis is strongly on the opener, and the opener itself. players playing improvisation is as existent as unicorns.
now take a mod like abd. you can just do the regular clap and still be streaking 20. why? because the emphasis is on what you do after the opener.
same goes with wushu, it's a very balanced mod, and requires skill to win.
#2: So, in the case where both players rush, the luckiest wins? not the one with superior technique?
In the case where both players rush, yes, it will be based somewhat on luck.
in mushu, you have to predict what your opponent will do, thus giving him an advantage to do unpredictable things, thus beating you. it matters what your opponent does, and yes that happens in other mods too, but that's just another fallacy to say that it makes mushu a balanced mod.
#3: Yeah lol that's true, but i was just using it as an example, let's change it to something like ABD, does my point still stand then?
#4: Ok let me phrase it slightly differently then:
Because it is harder to be dq'd because you can use your head to save, it is easier for you to defend, but also harder for you to dq your opponent.
5#: Well, since you have a 75% win ration in mushu you have kind-of disproved your point about the luck thing, because if luck played such a big roll you would be expected to be somewhere in the 40% - 60% win ratio area. But because you have such a high win ratio, that shows that you likely have a very superior technique, and good mindset.
1b: Well, in almost no mod there is easy to predict exactly where a strike will come from, but with some experience you can get a rough idea. Also, if it is harder to predict the strike's direction in mushu, you should in theory use that to your advantage, and do more strikes, because they are unexpected. So that evens out the odds.
Now for your further points:
your point about the elbow block, let's discuss that one:
So, blocking with elbow is generally a bad idea in mushu, i got you. So then just avoid blocking with the elbow, dodge instead, and aim your strikes where your opponent would normally block with his elbow, you are basically trading defense for offense, in that you give up blocking with your elbow, but gain another spot where you can hit your opponent(near his elbow) where he cannot block.
I hope i made more sense in this post
-----
I think that mushu might be easier to LEARN, not to play.
If you are talking about singleplayer i might agree but in multiplayer, they are both equally challenging.
How exactly mushu is 'balanced'? Your whole argument stands on a tu quoque fallacy. Two wrongs don't make a right, buddy.
Oh and yes, thanks for having an open mind, I hope I changed your view on how mushu is not balanced.
Here's how it is another way:
Let's say someone shovels you in aikido, now you need to know how to counter that shovel to not DQ. Also, unless the opponent does the extremely obvious shovel, you also need to know that your opponent will shovel.
The match is now not in your favor.
Last edited by Oxide; Feb 22, 2016 at 11:30 AM.
Here's a new topic if i can start another one:
What do you think is more important in toribash:
Skill or Knowledge?
What do you think is more important in toribash:
Skill or Knowledge?
Weirdest Tori in Toribash
<Diuwaybuns> Toribash is unprotected sex
<Diuwaybuns> Toribash is unprotected sex
Sorry, i went offline yesterday, because i was tired XD, and i don't know if mat is here now, but let me post my defens:
"False balance.
You are saying that if you can get dm'd, then you can also dm. but this does not equate.
let's say your opponent rushes. now you need to know how to counter it, PLUS the knowledge of how to dm him.
doesn't stand up very well, does it?"
Ok, so you need the knowledge on how to counter, and also how to dm. Well, how do you acquire that knowledge? I would say through experience, which in my mind atleast is a big part in skill if you can use it well.
"any mod? let me introduce you to spiritwrestling.tbm
the key to making a mod balanced is frame weightage.
take a very unbalanced (and to add, shitty) mod judo. the emphasis is strongly on the opener, and the opener itself. players playing improvisation is as existent as unicorns.
now take a mod like abd. you can just do the regular clap and still be streaking 20. why? because the emphasis is on what you do after the opener.
same goes with wushu, it's a very balanced mod, and requires skill to win."
On kindof a side note: what ever happened to spiritwrestling, is it still on an official server? I love that mod, one of my favourites.
So, you are saying that in a game where openers are the primary way of winning, and whoever has the best opener wins (?). To me that sounds like a game of rock, paper, scissors. Because player A might make an opener that can be countered by another opener that player B uses, but player B's opener can be countered by another opener, do you see how this sounds like a game of rock, paper,scissors?
So let's say judo then, that would be a rock,paper,scissors style game? I would agree with that.
(I just want to interject that before you call strawman i want to clarify what i mean with "the opener being the primary way to win". You said:
"the key to making a mod balanced is frame weightage"
I interpret this to mean that if a mod puts a lot of emphasis on the opener i.e. giving the opener more frames. And also some other factors such as players starting close to eachother.
That is what i mean when i say "the opener being the primary way to win".)
Now, back to the rock,paper,scissors thingy: I do not believe that a game of rps is luck based. I do not need to explain why i think that rps itself is not luck based, because rps is not the same thing as judo, though they have simularities.
Why don't i think judo is luck based? Well, how many distinctly different openers are there in judo that would give you the major upper-hand? I cannot say how many there are, but i assure you that it is not infinete, therefor you could in theory learn a counter for every, or atleast most of theese. Do you see now why it is like rps? (i want to really make this point as clearly as i can, as you are prone to call strawman whenever i draw a parallel, therefor i really want you to see why i think this way mat.
So how is this not luck? Well, i actually explained how i define luck in a previous post, but you might have missed it or simply forgotten it. so let me say it again:
In my mind luck is defined as:
Something that the players cannot have control over, that they have no knowledge of the outcome of, and that is unfair in nature.
Mow, why rps does not follow this rule is a whole separet post in itself, so let me explain why judo does not follow this rule:
Sure, player A does not know what player B is going to do in his opener. But if he had seen this player play before and that player B in 75% of the cases go for move X, which can be countered by move Y, if player plays move X, he has a 75% chance to counter.
This may still sound like a game of luck, because it is not 100% certain that player B will go for move X, but the point i am trying to make is that the skill in judo comes from trying to know what opener your opponent wil make, this may sound like an impossible task, but "if you know your opponent you may not fear a thousand battles."
And in judo there are some defensive openers that negate alot of the offensive openers, such as throwing yourself backwards, and then on the second turn start to spring back for an attack. Moves like theese limit your opponents possibilities in hitting you.
And two wise players would in a game like this both go for a defensive move in order to avoid this rps situation.
In short then: Judo might involve an rps style of luck, but it is balanced, because it follows the rule i wrote earlier, now if you have a problem with that rule, attack it, do it, i want it to evolve, and it is not going to evolve if noone is pointing out it's weaknesses.
Do i play judo? Fuck no! Because i don't like that it is rps-esk, but i wouldn't call it unbalanced.
Since both players are equal (well, there are some differences between tori and uke, but theese are known variables which you can memorize.) And the judo mod places no unfair advantege to any player that is not known to the players it is not unbalanced nor luck based if you follow my rule.
If you have a different rule please present it, and i might swap mine for yours XD.
"In the case where both players rush, yes, it will be based somewhat on luck.
in mushu, you have to predict what your opponent will do, thus giving him an advantage to do unpredictable things, thus beating you. it matters what your opponent does, and yes that happens in other mods too, but that's just another fallacy to say that it makes mushu a balanced mod."
First, because i barely have two braincells to rub togeather: How is it a fallacy?
So you have to predict what your opponent will do, so he gets an advantege in that he can then do something that you did not predict? Ok sure, but the exact same point could be made if the roles where reversed. You see, both players have (nearly*) equal oppurtunities, so it is still not luck.
(*It's nearly the same because uke and tori are not the same, but that variable is known.)
Now please point out this tu quote fallacy.
"False balance.
You are saying that if you can get dm'd, then you can also dm. but this does not equate.
let's say your opponent rushes. now you need to know how to counter it, PLUS the knowledge of how to dm him.
doesn't stand up very well, does it?"
Ok, so you need the knowledge on how to counter, and also how to dm. Well, how do you acquire that knowledge? I would say through experience, which in my mind atleast is a big part in skill if you can use it well.
"any mod? let me introduce you to spiritwrestling.tbm
the key to making a mod balanced is frame weightage.
take a very unbalanced (and to add, shitty) mod judo. the emphasis is strongly on the opener, and the opener itself. players playing improvisation is as existent as unicorns.
now take a mod like abd. you can just do the regular clap and still be streaking 20. why? because the emphasis is on what you do after the opener.
same goes with wushu, it's a very balanced mod, and requires skill to win."
On kindof a side note: what ever happened to spiritwrestling, is it still on an official server? I love that mod, one of my favourites.
So, you are saying that in a game where openers are the primary way of winning, and whoever has the best opener wins (?). To me that sounds like a game of rock, paper, scissors. Because player A might make an opener that can be countered by another opener that player B uses, but player B's opener can be countered by another opener, do you see how this sounds like a game of rock, paper,scissors?
So let's say judo then, that would be a rock,paper,scissors style game? I would agree with that.
(I just want to interject that before you call strawman i want to clarify what i mean with "the opener being the primary way to win". You said:
"the key to making a mod balanced is frame weightage"
I interpret this to mean that if a mod puts a lot of emphasis on the opener i.e. giving the opener more frames. And also some other factors such as players starting close to eachother.
That is what i mean when i say "the opener being the primary way to win".)
Now, back to the rock,paper,scissors thingy: I do not believe that a game of rps is luck based. I do not need to explain why i think that rps itself is not luck based, because rps is not the same thing as judo, though they have simularities.
Why don't i think judo is luck based? Well, how many distinctly different openers are there in judo that would give you the major upper-hand? I cannot say how many there are, but i assure you that it is not infinete, therefor you could in theory learn a counter for every, or atleast most of theese. Do you see now why it is like rps? (i want to really make this point as clearly as i can, as you are prone to call strawman whenever i draw a parallel, therefor i really want you to see why i think this way mat.
So how is this not luck? Well, i actually explained how i define luck in a previous post, but you might have missed it or simply forgotten it. so let me say it again:
In my mind luck is defined as:
Something that the players cannot have control over, that they have no knowledge of the outcome of, and that is unfair in nature.
Mow, why rps does not follow this rule is a whole separet post in itself, so let me explain why judo does not follow this rule:
Sure, player A does not know what player B is going to do in his opener. But if he had seen this player play before and that player B in 75% of the cases go for move X, which can be countered by move Y, if player plays move X, he has a 75% chance to counter.
This may still sound like a game of luck, because it is not 100% certain that player B will go for move X, but the point i am trying to make is that the skill in judo comes from trying to know what opener your opponent wil make, this may sound like an impossible task, but "if you know your opponent you may not fear a thousand battles."
And in judo there are some defensive openers that negate alot of the offensive openers, such as throwing yourself backwards, and then on the second turn start to spring back for an attack. Moves like theese limit your opponents possibilities in hitting you.
And two wise players would in a game like this both go for a defensive move in order to avoid this rps situation.
In short then: Judo might involve an rps style of luck, but it is balanced, because it follows the rule i wrote earlier, now if you have a problem with that rule, attack it, do it, i want it to evolve, and it is not going to evolve if noone is pointing out it's weaknesses.
Do i play judo? Fuck no! Because i don't like that it is rps-esk, but i wouldn't call it unbalanced.
Since both players are equal (well, there are some differences between tori and uke, but theese are known variables which you can memorize.) And the judo mod places no unfair advantege to any player that is not known to the players it is not unbalanced nor luck based if you follow my rule.
If you have a different rule please present it, and i might swap mine for yours XD.
"In the case where both players rush, yes, it will be based somewhat on luck.
in mushu, you have to predict what your opponent will do, thus giving him an advantage to do unpredictable things, thus beating you. it matters what your opponent does, and yes that happens in other mods too, but that's just another fallacy to say that it makes mushu a balanced mod."
First, because i barely have two braincells to rub togeather: How is it a fallacy?
So you have to predict what your opponent will do, so he gets an advantege in that he can then do something that you did not predict? Ok sure, but the exact same point could be made if the roles where reversed. You see, both players have (nearly*) equal oppurtunities, so it is still not luck.
(*It's nearly the same because uke and tori are not the same, but that variable is known.)
Now please point out this tu quote fallacy.
