Originally Posted by snob
consumership mindset in action:
"i bought it so wi MUST have my fun, even if i don't want to learn to play"
good game. let me assume, american?
Pretentious condescending prick mindset in action: "Let's bash on this guy without even reading his entire post and addressing all the reasons that formed his own personal opinion."
Also, let me assume that the concept of capitalizing certain letters in your sentences is alien to you. You mistook the continent I'm on, let alone the country. Like I said, that was my opinion of Demon's Souls(and seeing how Dark Souls is extremely similar, my opinion of it as well). A game that fails to entertain me while managing to annoy me is hardly a good game in my opinion. It appears you failed to see that I wrote this as well:
Originally Posted by lordtiger
I do realize that it was made as an old-school RPG, but it order to be really successful you have to play it in a very specific way, and I have no interest if I have no choice on how to proceed.
Would you deny that in order to win against relatively strong opponents in these games, you have to employ a very specific strategy(or a set of very specific strategies), thus severely limiting the amount of improvisation you can employ? I have no problems with learning how to play games. Of course, you like to assume that I am somehow inferior without any evidence whatsoever(except a personal opinion on a game we've both played and one of us enjoyed). I'm quite confident in saying that I am very proficient in a lot of games from different genres - and that is achieved by playing games for days/months/years. Even so, one thing I don't tolerate much in games is cheapness and non-responsive controls. And in my experience Demon's Souls had quite a lot of that, especially as far as platforming went. Collision detection was off in a lot of places - what especially pissed me off was the amount of times I died while falling through solid floors or standing near edges where both of my feet were no closer than 30cm to the edge. I did not enjoy that aspect of the game in any way. When I die such a cheap death hundreds of times and I am legitimately killed in combat tens of times less frequently, I become annoyed. I play games for two reasons - some in order to enjoy a masterful story, some in order to relax and have fun. The best games deliver in both aspects. For me, this one didn't deliver in each aspect. I rest my case.
Last edited by lordtiger; Mar 20, 2013 at 08:50 PM.
One of three leaders of [Hunters]. Chat? Identify yourself: https://discord.gg/ZHdJfAT
Originally Posted by lordtiger
Pretentious condescending prick mindset in action: "Let's bash on this guy without even reading his entire post and addressing all the reasons that formed his own personal opinion."
i did read it and come to this conclusion
Also, let me assume that the concept of capitalizing certain letters in your sentences is alien to you.
we are not in somewhat business correspondence and do not discuss anything that may be related to further partnership between two companies so i may allow myself to type rather freely. and thatnks for picking up on this one.
You mistook the continent I'm on, let alone the country. Like I said, that was my opinion of Demon's Souls(and seeing how Dark Souls is extremely similar, my opinion of it as well). A game that fails to entertain me while managing to annoy me is hardly a good game in my opinion. It appears you failed to see that I wrote this as well:
as i siad "i bought it so i MUST have my fun" pretty much consumership mindset
Would you deny that in order to win against relatively strong opponents in these games, you have to employ a very specific strategy(or a set of very specific strategies), thus severely limiting the amount of improvisation you can employ?
yes i will. there are atleast 3 ways to defeat each boss
I have no problems with learning how to play games.
yeah i see
I'm quite confident in saying that I am very proficient in a lot of games from different genres - and that is achieved by playing games for days/months/years.
offtop but, do you play simulators? i bet you don't
Even so, one thing I don't tolerate much in games is cheapness and non-responsive controls.
dark souls / demons souls have the most responsive and precise combat system and controls then any other game i ever encountered in last 10 years of my gaming life. if you want to know the definition of clunky games check out tenchu 1, 2 on ps1
And in my experience Demon's Souls had quite a lot of that, especially as far as platforming went. Collision detection was off in a lot of places - what especially pissed me off was the amount of times I died while falling through solid floors or standing near edges where both of my feet were no closer than 30cm to the edge.
never happened to me in dark souls
I did not enjoy that aspect of the game in any way. When I die such a cheap death hundreds of times and I am legitimately killed in combat tens of times less frequently, I become annoyed.
l2p. recently i'm completing game on starting character level 3 and without shield. game is fair and not hard if you accept it's rules.
I play games for two reasons - some in order to enjoy a masterful story, some in order to relax and have fun.
^ definition of casual gamer. sorry there is no "easy mode" or "press to win" button here, or means for you to feel overpowered ( which in most cases quite miserable thing and more like providing compensation feeling. sorry i don't understand that but many people surely do and need it.
game is gameplay and overal gaming experience ( actions by player ).
if you play games for storytelling and relaxing you should go for visual novels.
The best games deliver in both aspects. For me, this one didn't deliver in each aspect. I rest my case.
as i said, go for visual novels. games is different concept.
here
Sincerely,
snob
snob
Originally Posted by snob
i did read it and come to this conclusion
Which leads me to question your reasoning ability.
Originally Posted by snob
we are not in somewhat business correspondence and do not discuss anything that may be related to further partnership between two companies so i may allow myself to type rather freely. and thatnks for picking up on this one.
And I may refuse to take you seriously if your arguments are invalid and your way of writing childish. And you're welcome.
Originally Posted by snob
as i siad "i bought it so i MUST have my fun" pretty much consumership mindset
So, you don't buy games to have fun? You don't buy anything at all in order to use it for its intended purpose? You're not a consumer? If you're guilty of the same thing you're accusing me off, don't you think your accusation is meaningless?
Originally Posted by snob
yes i will. there are atleast 3 ways to defeat each boss
3 ways that are in their core different from one another? And they allow improvisation?
Originally Posted by snob
yeah i see
No, really, you don't see. Because you have no idea what I have played, for how long I have played it and in what way have I played it.
Originally Posted by snob
offtop but, do you play simulators? i bet you don't
You're wrong yet again. Excuse me, but do you seriously believe you can win this argument? I bet you don't.
Originally Posted by snob
dark souls / demons souls have the most responsive and precise combat system and controls then any other game i ever encountered in last 10 years of my gaming life. if you want to know the definition of clunky games check out tenchu 1, 2 on ps1
I've played PS1 games during the majority of my childhood, and I dare say some of them were more responsive than the games we're discussing. Your statement that the two games in question have the most responsive and precise combat system and controls is blatantly and demonstrably false, and you would know it had you done your research. Or you simply haven't played enough of the more-responsive games and these are your best examples, in which case I pity you.
Originally Posted by snob
never happened to me in dark souls
Then you're either extremely lucky or they've somehow managed to completely fix this bug in Dark Souls. Both of which I highly doubt.
Originally Posted by snob
l2p. recently i'm completing game on starting character level 3 and without shield. game is fair and not hard if you accept it's rules.
You're doing that after multiple playthroughs and while using very specific tactics in order to survive. Game is fair if you're willing to adapt your own playstyle to its rules, which is hardly a choice. My playstyle is much more improvisation based(as in, I like to experiment, try new things and test the abilities I'm given to their fullest extent) than the rules of this game would allow. You're willing to play by these rules, I am not. I am not willing to spend days becoming really good at a game that limits me so much. It's a matter of personal preference, and yours does not mean any more than mine. In your case "l2p" would be "learn this game's rules and follow them to the letter so you may enjoy its gameplay, even if you feel it isn't worth it". You feel I should waste my time trying to like something that you like, without accepting that your opinion is not the only one and it certainly isn't somehow more true than mine. I may like rock and you may like folk songs or vice-versa. I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince you that my genre is better simply because I like it better. Which is what you're trying to do.
Originally Posted by snob
^ definition of casual gamer. sorry there is no "easy mode" or "press to win" button here, or means for you to feel overpowered ( which in most cases quite miserable thing and more like providing compensation feeling. sorry i don't understand that but many people surely do and need it.
game is gameplay and overal gaming experience ( actions by player ).
if you play games for storytelling and relaxing you should go for visual novels.
What do you play games for then, oh great one? I am not a casual gamer in any sense of the word. I simply do not wish do go into "super hardcore mode" for a game that does not entertain me, and certainly not for a game that has a type of gameplay I don't like. You don't like feeling overpowered in your games? Let me guess, you are probably a chess grandmaster. And you've beaten qwop, echochrome, the impossible game, the world's hardest game, etc. And you certainly don't feel underpowered enough in your day-to-day existence, knowing that there are millions of way for you to die in real-life. You've died in Dark Souls. And you got to live again. You're immortal in Dark Souls, you can't be killed for good. Even if your save is gone you can make a new one. You can start a new game. If you don't think that is being overpowered, you're not worth my time. In games, you can do what you could never do in reality. You are only limited by the current resources, technology, skill and imagination. Why would I want a virtual world as limited as my reality? About your graphic novel retort, I have read graphic novels for years now. That doesn't mean there aren't games in which the experience is just as good(or better, because it's interactive).
I play games for recreation. That's about as simple as I can put it. I am deeply sorry if you don't understand that concept.
Originally Posted by snob
as i said, go for visual novels. games is different concept.
Your vision of games is a different concept. Mine vision of games isn't as limited. Good day/night to you.
One of three leaders of [Hunters]. Chat? Identify yourself: https://discord.gg/ZHdJfAT
Originally Posted by lordtiger
So, you don't buy games to have fun? You don't buy anything at all in order to use it for its intended purpose? You're not a consumer?
I am consumer, i use bough producs for intended purpose. Games are meant to be PLAYED. visual novels - not. there is a difference between visual novels and games.
3 ways that are in their core different from one another? And they allow improvisation?
of course. whole game is improvisation, you can choose whenewer you want to go and it all will be doable depending on your skill. nothing is blocking your way. and no one will forbid you do do anything you want, for example killing npc. but in dark souls you have to deal with consequences of your actions.
You're wrong yet again. Excuse me, but do you seriously believe you can win this argument? I bet you don't.
i'm here not to win or loose, but discuss and argue.
Then you're either extremely lucky or they've somehow managed to completely fix this bug in Dark Souls. Both of which I highly doubt.
play and see on your own.
You're doing that after multiple playthroughs and while using very specific tactics in order to survive. Game is fair if you're willing to adapt your own playstyle to its rules, which is hardly a choice.
it is. i can use various tactics even using base level character and most basic weapons on any enemies encountered.
My playstyle is much more improvisation based(as in, I like to experiment, try new things and test the abilities I'm given to their fullest extent) than the rules of this game would allow.
so you expect to get rid of everything in 1st try? thats not an improvisation based. if your improvisation is terrible the you must get fucked.
You're willing to play by these rules, I am not. I am not willing to spend days becoming really good at a game that limits me so much.
couple of hours is what it takes to get a grip of it. if you are so lazy or terrible that you can't get it right, then you souls not play videogames in first place.
as i said you souls try visual novels. thats the thing you are looking for.
You feel I should waste my time trying to like something that you like, without accepting that your opinion is not the only one and it certainly isn't somehow more true than mine. I may like rock and you may like folk songs or vice-versa. I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince you that my genre is better simply because I like it better. Which is what you're trying to do.
you are judging a whole thing even without even managing to get hang of it. it will be the same if i will judge space simulator, if it's better or worse then other space sims, while i'm completely unfamiliar with this genre. this is what you do right now. Looking similar doesn't mean the same. for example arma and VBS look like general fps, but these are sims. is that clear enough example?
What do you play games for then, oh great one? I am not a casual gamer in any sense of the word.
yes you are. you want to have no complications and complete game without putting any effort to learn how to play it. and if game have any kind of learning curve it "sucks"
You don't like feeling overpowered in your games?
if you have no skill developed, no attention span and no willing to learn, gameplay which can described as beating up newborns with a baseball bat, and still want game to tell you that you are hero, that you are doing everything right then this is something ill that you need such compensation.
And you certainly don't feel underpowered enough in your day-to-day existence, knowing that there are millions of way for you to die in real-life.
midlife crysis didn't strike me yet. i have around 15-20 years more.
so based on your words, you play games and like to feel overpowered as compensation to your underpowered existance? as i said, thats ill.
You've died in Dark Souls. And you got to live again. You're immortal in Dark Souls, you can't be killed for good. Even if your save is gone you can make a new one. You can start a new game. If you don't think that is being overpowered, you're not worth my time.
said a guy who can't handle dark souls even like that and complaining about it...
About your graphic novel retort, I have read graphic novels for years now. That doesn't mean there aren't games in which the experience is just as good(or better, because it's interactive).
game and visual novels are different concepts.
I play games for recreation. That's about as simple as I can put it. I am deeply sorry if you don't understand that concept.
thats exact definition of casual gaming
Your vision of games is a different concept. Mine vision of games isn't as limited. Good day/night to you.
there is only one definotion for game and only onde definition of visual novels and these two don't depend on your vision.
this way i can say that in my vision terrorism is when you cut the bread, but there is a definition of terrorism and it's different from cooking
here
Sincerely,
snob
snob
Originally Posted by snob
here
Originally Posted by snob
I am consumer, i use bough producs for intended purpose. Games are meant to be PLAYED. visual novels - not. there is a difference between visual novels and games.
And by playing games, you have fun. Look up what a game is in a dictionary. I can give you an example from Oxford's Advanced Learner's Dictionary 8th Edition:
game - an activity that you do to have fun.
Originally Posted by snob
of course. whole game is improvisation, you can choose whenewer you want to go and it all will be doable depending on your skill. nothing is blocking your way. and no one will forbid you do do anything you want, for example killing npc. but in dark souls you have to deal with consequences of your actions.
Not everything will be "doable" depending on your skills. You are severely limited by the game rules. You fail to understand that, and I'm not willing to waste any more of my time trying to make you see reason. Dark Souls is not the only game where you have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Far from it.
Originally Posted by snob
i'm here not to win or loose, but discuss and argue.
When your arguments are invalid and you refuse to believe even for a second that you can be wrong, you lose the argument. You're not objective at all. I try my best to be, and by doing that I realize arguing with you is meaningless. Either I need to start arguing/talking on your level or you need to get to mine before we can understand each other. I have no interest in getting to your level, and it appears that you don't want to get to mine either.
Originally Posted by snob
play and see on your own.
Not interested in wasting more of my time. You said it's so, you prove it. If I say that you don't have a rubber ball and you say you do, you have to prove that you have one.
Originally Posted by snob
it is. i can use various tactics even using base level character and most basic weapons on any enemies encountered.
No, you can't. Not without severely limiting yourself to avoid certain death. This game encourages you to play it safe. I like taking risks.
Originally Posted by snob
couple of hours is what it takes to get a grip of it. if you are so lazy or terrible that you can't get it right, then you souls not play videogames in first place.
as i said you souls try visual novels. thats the thing you are looking for.
I got a very decent grip of the game. If getting it "right" means that I am annoyed by the thing that's supposed to bring me joy, I won't do it. If your hand is infected and I tell you to cut off your hand "the right way"(imagine the "right way" is by using a dull knife), and you have the option of having a qualified and experienced surgeon with anesthetics, scalpels and power tools at his/her disposal, would you not choose the latter if you had the option? Lie to me.
"then you souls not play videogames in first place."
I have no idea what you meant by that. Regardless, you don't have any sort of power over me. If your opinion is that I shouldn't play videogames, I choose to ignore it. My opinion is that you shouldn't play videogames. It is also my opinion that you're not good at arguing.
I've read visual novels, I've liked some of them. I've played games that offer better experiences than some visual novels, I've really liked them. I've also loved some games that had absolutely nothing to do with visual novels, including simulators. You are not the one to tell me what I'm looking for. I can decide that for myself.
Originally Posted by snob
you are judging a whole thing even without even managing to get hang of it. it will be the same if i will judge space simulator, if it's better or worse then other space sims, while i'm completely unfamiliar with this genre. this is what you do right now. Looking similar doesn't mean the same. for example arma and VBS look like general fps, but these are sims. is that clear enough example?
I'm judging two games based on my experience with one of them and based on other people's experience with the other one. And I spent about 40 hours with Demon's Souls before deciding it wasn't worth my time. And I got good at it, I just didn't enjoy it.
Originally Posted by snob
so you expect to get rid of everything in 1st try? thats not an improvisation based. if your improvisation is terrible the you must get fucked.
I'm starting to think you have problems. I never said I expected to get rd of everything on my first try. But I do try new things whenever I can. My improvisation skills are very good, probably better than yours. Of course I'd have to prove that they are before you believe me, but the same applies in your case. If your logic is terrible then you must be bad at debating.
Originally Posted by snob
yes you are. you want to have no complications and complete game without putting any effort to learn how to play it. and if game have any kind of learning curve it "sucks"
No, I'm not. And once again you assumed what I want and tried putting words in my mouth that I didn't ever say/write. I've beaten more games than you on high difficulty settings. I've become very good at several games that have a steep learning curve(Colin McRae games, Tekken games, GRID, echochrome, God of War games on very hard, old-school JRPGs like Digimon World 2, Final Fantasy, etc). But I had to like them in order to spend enough time with them in order to master them. You don't seem to get that. You're a fan of simulators. That much is obvious from your post history.
Originally Posted by snob
if you have no skill developed, no attention span and no willing to learn, gameplay which can described as beating up newborns with a baseball bat, and still want game to tell you that you are hero, that you are doing everything right then this is something ill that you need such compensation.
It would appear you're trying to compensate for something here. Beat any JRPG on very hard or win any race in GRID on very hard before you tell me it's as easy as your example. Then the revelation that you're wrong may hit you.
Originally Posted by snob
midlife crysis didn't strike me yet. i have around 15-20 years more.
I hope you learn how to properly debate before that time comes.
Originally Posted by snob
so based on your words, you play games and like to feel overpowered as compensation to your underpowered existance? as i said, thats ill.
I like games that don't try to be overly realistic as well as those who do. I need to compensation, I simply enjoy having the option. Just like you do. If you had only one life in Dark Souls and once you lost it, your game would self-destruct and you could never play it again, what would you do? Tell you what, get a game, play in until you die/lose once, and then never play it again. Be a badass, I dare you.
Originally Posted by snob
said a guy who can't handle dark souls even like that and complaining about it...
Said a guy that could handle Dark Souls if he wanted to, which he does not. I was stating my critical opinion of the game, not complaining. Once again you try to make it as if I said something I didn't.
Originally Posted by snob
game and visual novels are different concepts.
You don't say? Doesn't mean interactivity can't be applied to visual novels or vice-versa.
Originally Posted by snob
thats exact definition of casual gaming
Nope. It simply means I like to have fun while playing games, which you apparently dislike. What do you play games for? Do you play games in order to play games?
Originally Posted by snob
there is only one definotion for game and only onde definition of visual novels and these two don't depend on your vision.
this way i can say that in my vision terrorism is when you cut the bread, but there is a definition of terrorism and it's different from cooking
That is extremely wrong, as you can see here. It appears you won't see the truth even if it's right in front of you.
There isn't one ultimate perfect definition of terrorism. That is a fact you can't deny and expect anyone to think you have a point.
P.S: You appear to be huge simulator and Dark Souls fan. And not one that is objective when arguing. Your opinion on them both is biased, which is to be expected when you're fan of something. You were adamant in your pursuit of trying to make it seem as if I said things I don't, while not actually commenting on most of my points. Therefore, I feel that further discussion on this topic with you is useless. If you want to continue, do so in a PM to me. We can continue there, but I don't want to raise your post count, especially when you're posting in our threads without permission and somewhat disregarding our rules. So, if you want to continue talking, PM me with your retort to this post. If not, good luck to you, sir.
P.S.S: When I read through your posts in other threads, you were actually much more reasonable there. I'm surprised you weren't here, we might have achieved something. Oh well.
tl;dr: snob, if you want to continue our discussion(even though I see no reason to do so), we'll do it via PM's. PM me with your retort to this post if interested. If you post it here, I will delete it. If it's more of the same logic I'm not sure if I'll even bother replying.
One of three leaders of [Hunters]. Chat? Identify yourself: https://discord.gg/ZHdJfAT
