Originally Posted by Grim

I like to fuck around with my friends in normals which is still fun, but playing ap jayce jungle and getting murdered is no fun at all. Maybe that's what spar meant, how could you break the meta if you played every game like it was game 5 at the world finals. Stuff like graves jungle and trundle support wouldn't be around if people didn't try new things.

Originally Posted by Hyde

Uh, for a period of time Graves was the strongest champion in the game no matter where you played him. Jungling him was super effective because he didn't have to deal with longer ranged champions harassing him and he could farm to his heart's content without being contested anywhere.

That's a really bad example.

As for trundle, it isn't really meta-breaking. Bruisers/anti-carries with cc have been getting played support for a while. Trundle is not only an anti-carry with that AD steal, but he's also a tankbuster, and on top of that he has displacement cc that rocks in teamfights which he will most likely be in as a support. It isn't really meta-breaking, because it's meta, I don't know what you're getting at.

The game isn't about "trying new things", the game is about realizing what has the potential to be really effective in a role and using it in that role. Most effective tactics available, meta. Sure, you can counterpick a meta champion with something they don't really do well against, but that's still meta.

I don't think you have a grasp on what a meta is and why things are meta.

Originally Posted by SparChar

Trundle support wasn't meta all the time so yes, it is meta breaking. Yeah, you think he's meta because now people actually realize it's strong. Believe me, you would say something different about Trundle if I went back to a time before Trundle support was popularized.

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Originally Posted by Grim

Trundle wasn't "meta breaking" in the sense that it didn't change the meta completely like jayce mid did or hexagon top, but it certainly broke the meta, messing around with a concept and a goal in mind(think hecarim and how teams had to completely play around his teleport homeguard engage) is the most fun way to play league imo.

Edit: You don't seem to understand that you cannot determine what is or is not "strong" without trying some out-of-meta strategies. Also graves is a great example because someone thought "hey that bounce back mechanic might be really good in the jungle" and completely changed the meta, they didn't change any game mechanics from 5.22 to 6.1 that made it viable, someone had to theorycraft it.

Originally Posted by Grim

K I think I see what you mean, you're talking about things like lulu adc and vayne top that people play sometimes just because they can. I'm talking more about things like Pantheon and Wukong jungle. They weren't originally "meta" but eventually (at one point) became go to picks in the jungle. Although they weren't played in the positions they already had the kit for it, and the player just tweaked the runes+masteries and the build. So we're talking about different things tbh. Also there was a 1 month window where no one played graves jungle after his rework so even though he was viable it wasn't a popular pick. The meta is defined by popular picks not what's viable. There are plenty of things that are viable on their own, but only in a team built around them. Things like Kindred adc and Ryze mid can be played, but they're terrible matchups if you don't build the team around them. Same with Kassadin, he's really not good mid unless he's against a Control Mage or Fizz, but he is certainly a viable mid laner in most occasions.

Lissandra = Viable
Rek'Sai = Viable
Corki = Viable

and,

Tristana = Viable
Poppy = Viable
Olaf = Viable

but only the top 3 are considered "meta". Poppy could maybe be considered in the meta but she hasn't really found her role yet. The bottom 3 are situational while the top 3 can be picked in any composition and do well, but all 6 are viable.

Also disclaimer; this might be a dumb post. I don't think I explained what I meant the best way possible.