thats the core population of toribash. sometimes you need to show the right way for player in order to make him better.

there are alot of players on my memory who become great after you show em the ropes and the way to improve their skills.

as result you may see few black belt players who play on level close to 10th dns and master belts, while we (me atleast) learned all of this hard way and it took lots of time.

the ultimate goal of this org is very simple: show things to look up for, and to help "ultimate noobs" to become good players in short ammount of time (with tutorials)
this is why we make tutorials, promote improv etc.
we show how it should get done, show an example. if we will just say "play as you like, you can join if you play with openers", we will get waaaay more members, but what for? to get another random joke organization? nope. NEVER.


we all gone thru period of "I NEED TO GET LOTS OF TC" but there are other way more interesting things then rushung ftw in any cost.

Snk, I feel You try to convince everyone to Your own exp as it worked to You, but it's just not true. There are many ways to get good, You have no monopoly at knowledge. Run this org in way You want, we are talking about wushu not org things, and You are just wrong in general.

bRuCiA: well, I feel that we again reached this "personal" level. It depends on a player. There are some talented ppl who are getting how to impro really fast, without opener phase, and there are some who start with openers and are talented which let them start to impro with good basics and they are better fast. There are also hardworking ppl who fail at impro, but they play a lot of and get good fast (if talking about time, not amount of games). But... Most of ppl aren't that epic. And that's why I want to point why- in my opinion- simple openers should be popularized.
The main problem with trying to impro at beginning is the fact that You lose a lot of games. I mean, shitloads. If You have no basics, You will self dq often, and even if You will not- You will not be effective enough, which will make You vulnerable at hits. And it has big psychological impact... That's why wushu isn't as popular as aikido. Becouse it's hard, and without openers- it's even harder for beginner. A lot of ppl just give up, especially when they lose a lot of- and this happens when You try to impro without basics... Wushu world lacks fresh blood. There are many ranking farmers at wushu.tbm and wushufixed.tbm, but they are just tripoding. There are really few new brushu players due to community work- if they use openers, they are blamed. If they don't- they often lose in first 200frames/ their opponent has too much points and they have no motivation to play. So how the hell can they learn how to play?

I'm with Snake on this one.

Most people just copy moves from eachother, I noticed this when I made my own moves... After a while other people started using them. And I got mad because of it, I even tried reporting for plagiarism...

The thing I like about impro is that no one does the same things, and if they're skilled enough the game gets even more exciting ^^

I just noticed there is also this thread on Rapid: http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=372938

I agree with the fact that actually with the higher ED openers are become lesser effective and i'm happy and proud to be the person that increased the ED in wushu exactly for this reason: kill openers as they were before (= mostly a matter of luck. DaNoob say that he had more moves starting with a single openers...but we all had them! That's why it was luck anyway, because from the same opener your opponent could do many different attacks as well as you)

Today it's a fact that openers doesn't work anymore as well as before (and that's why today i'm more opened to opener users respect the past) and it mean that a noob will lose anyway even using openers. Anyone of us was born with the knowledge of this mod, we all did shitons of match before we could consider ourselves good.
For me there aren't any other way for become good at this mod. So if new players can't handle the first period, i'm sorry because it's sad to see this awesome mod with a such small community, but there isn't much we can't do. As you said, wushu is hard, but if you love the freedom that it give, so you will pass the first moment, and you will be really really proud of yourself.

Ps: when i created Brushu i wanted a pro wushu mod, that's why it has 1000 frames..not for be popular (well..i hoped it was popular, but only between wushu lovers) but for give more possibility to who is better to win the match. If someone start to learn wushu from brushu, so i agree he will have a hard time before he will start to win (but if you want to start a new game from the hardest difficulty, so you can't blame if you will need a lot of time)

heh.
That's the most egoistic, close-minded, generalized shitpost I have ever read in my whole life, sorry snake.

I was the wushu teacher of polish section of unibash for ~6 months.
That's quite a long time. I had many students. Most of them didn't have wushu in blood, to make them decent players I used the openers way. Or more likely something I call 'first turn move patterns', as those weren't openers sensu stricto.
Simple moves to start with for first 50frames only, then slowly, match by match, making it a little and little more random to reach improv. Also, CREATING ALL KIND OF OPENERS, from swaps, rushes, helis, backhelis and all that, not for the purpose of using them in multi, just for the teaching only - that's great method to get to know your tori and practice fast joint state changing. Improv always was the final state I wanted them to reach, teaching comebacks in first place was the most important.
Start with a simple move, don't fail, stay calm, try to attack, comeback, comeback everytime - I find that better than Improv, improvvvvv, improvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv, fail, dq - Sorry snake, forcing improv on new players who didn't ever play this mod before or just don't know how to play it just doesn't work and ends with a fail.
Sure, there were players with that 'wushu sense' able to start with improv even before they were able to comeback properly, but overally, 90% of students were glad and doing well with 'openers' way. Try to teach, let's say, black belt who played mostly judo and some aikido the ways of wushu without giving him anything to start with (dem 'first turn move patterns') and find out if you can make him decent player, of course if you're able to keep him with you, tho it'd mostly like end with 'fuck you, you're shit teacher, I don't understand' after a lesson or two.

never was part of unibash, but always helped out if anyone asked for, with that I recruided people to fl0w, some didn't, but overal impov from start work, if person wish to learn and have some patience.

Both sides have different philosophies, and each of them has a certain point to it(chain of thought).Let's get over it already..ok?

Short v. I agree with you Powas.


Long v.,

Main points // Table of Contents:
1) We all have different beliefs in how to "grow" as Toribash players.
2) Wushu, why wushu?
3) Advantages with "impro"
4) Advantages with "openers"
5) Problems with "impro"
6) Problems with "openers"
7) My Belief Included in the previous 6.
8) How to go about it
9) Summary

---------------

1) We all have different beliefs in how to "grow" as Toribash players.
What I notice is that both of you make quite unclear arguments on some points and some very solid arguments, tho so far by reading your posts, and the former relax all leaders posts and many others I can conclude that we all had very different ways and strategies(?) to become what we are today. Thrandir, I definitely see your point, and I agree with you and see your point in that last point but I will try to bring the ongoing discussion further before addressing the purpose of this org, from my view.

2) Wushu, why wushu?
Powas, you argumented on the line of teaching new players play, you also mentioned black belts and higher. Id like to separate the three groups; 1 Newcomers, 2 Non-Wushuers, 3 Experienced non-Wushuers.

Newcomers are those who cant really control their Tori at all. Keeping it short on these guys; Don't wushu. It might be fun, It might be awesome, It Might Look awesome whatever, but to learn the fundamental basics of Toribash I would suggest that you play a quick mod, Aikido, Judo, Taekkyon etc where there is NO forgiving on higher levels, yet a higher phase and such more time can be spent experimenting with joints and whatifidolikethis which I believe to be the easiest and most efficient way of learning ANY new game.

Non-Wushuers of mediocre quality, In this category you find anyone who believes that utilizing joints is a hard thing, I believe that Hampa would land in this category so I'm not saying that only new players or inexperienced players falls in this category. For these players there are two ways to go about, and I believe this is the category which we try to change the mindset of. When you go to a 750 tc tourney you would today find three players which id call newcomers, they have no clue what they are doing and there is a 50% chance that they rocketjump. There would most often be two players who uses openers and then just fails, and maybe one who tries to play wushu in a "impro" manner, but he most often fails and DQs, something that is very typical for this category id say. To be honest, when it comes to wushu I would have ranked snake in this category, no offence, about a year ago or so when you had a 66% chance of randomly dqing. Now, you fall in the third once again.

The final category includes those of us who believes we have a good understanding of movement no matter what the mod (when its normal toris and somewhat normal settings). This group includes all of us who finds it EASY to predict the outcome of a move, easy to predict somewhat how the situation will be after 50 frames midair and after 50 frames of close combat. This category has 2 alternatives, Openers and Improvisation. I find that Improvisation adds a lot of fun to the game and as such I choose to promote it. Openers in themselves I find dull in the fundamental basics; Having fun. I could construct a move that would be 1) hard to avoid, 2) give me the win at least in 1/2 games. I do see whats fun in competing with openers, but as i find Wushu to be more than the first 200 frames, Id call that something else, name it Opshu if you want to.

So, this brought me to Why wushu; To me, read TO ME, its all about 1) Long games, 2) Outmaneuvering your opponent, 3) forgiving games, 4) final point: awesome replays.

I see how openers could make point 2 and 4, but to me openers would never ever prove worthy of 1 nor 3.

3) Advantages with "impro"
So, to the general player, I'd say that improvisation pays of. What it really does is that it challenges YOU to Control your Tori while facing an opponent, and distraction. Literally, there could be no better situation to train for wushu or brushu, when we speak of 2k games, cause after those first 400, no matter what opener, you are left with your skills to improvise alone.

4) Advantages with "openers"
Lets go back to the noob, the newcomer. He or she cant control his or her Tori. Improvising is suicide. I would not recommend wushu at all, ie. discussing unibash i find irrelevant to the topic.

For other players, skilled or so, I'd like to leave this point as an open ended question: Why do you play Toribash?

Openers rise the chance of success, the chance of you wining the game, and the chance of you making an awesome performance, but deep inside what you are doing is most often staring a script against a player who has little or no chance of avoiding annihilation (wushu.tbm), or being flung 2-500 units away from you and being 0k to 60k in score, fun huh?

5) Problems with "impro"
Problems with improvisation; people cant move their tori... Already pointed at a solution for that, check. DQ rate high... Is it? I'd say its lower than in your average opener game, cause when they cant connect/have done so, 50% of the players fail at tri-poding... It's not fun, well that comes down to the purpose and the definition of fun. Following my definition, it is What make this mod category so fun.

6) Problems with "openers"
Openers, Dismembered. Opener (the same), Evade, He dqed...

Thats my average wushu game with openers nowdays. Back in the days (sound so wrong) it where a different story, what I did back then where to build my moves on basic principles, something you discussed Powas, and thats a matter of definition. And yes, I often used 4 openers; Extend both gutes, Almost hold all noobclap, Noobrushu forward, or backflip to avoid. If I remember correctly, some games where pure awesomeness, but they where in the end nothing but repetition. I sure learnt a lot, how to absorb hits, aim at knees, predict things that where i-logical, but logical for openers... I' would't say that it where a bad thing, rather I would call it a necessary evil to understand what to value in any game, the fun parts and not just the fun in w(s)inning.

Today, most of us are able to play without openers, to have fun without openers, and I would like to conclude that our games might not be as fast phased, contain as much gore, but they are still fun right?

To me, the only negative part is that they do MOST OFTEN not lead to the same interesting games, the fun games where you have to comeback, strike, comeback strike, avoid a comeback to kick someone from behind etc. That's the reason why I promote Improvisation to high-tier players.

8) How to go about it
I believe (I can fly) that we should promote wushu alone, and by that I mean the category of wushu we stand for, long games. By promoting Improvisation only we can help a new generation see the fun in losing, the fun in having fun literally, and having to win to have fun. I would like to say that this is a game, not a competitive mod such as ABD (Which is interesting, and fun in some ways), a game where one is under pressure yet does not rely on some script.

9) Summary
Lets create the mod "Opshu". As I see it we have been divided, some like both, (I like both) whilst some others only prefer one of the two. Its in a way good, and in another a bad thing; 1) We wont butcher each other and rage at each other. 2) We basically take what where the essence of wushu and force migrate it into a new being.

But to me that seems to be the only solution that is viable.



NOT!

No, that would be good, but there is one fatal flaw; we have yet to address the openers. I do not promote them, I would not promote them, but I would not rage, I would not try to end this persons TB career(Љ), I would most probably either kill that person in the game, or just avoid it altogether and have him or her DQ and then face the other players in the room before I repeat again...

But, Should we promote openers? YES, we should promote OPSHU!

The End!

What if i will play only with openers? but not youtube openers. i will make my own and will use them? so..


will i?

i think with openers players can grow up, make them better. Make them better and more stylish than any other opener.

or u will be noob. dats all



BUT!!! but if u use impro u will again:
1) grow up

2) u are noob


Dats all. nothing hard ;o